This week on the podcast we continue with the Business of Outdoor Recreation series with Dennis Nelms to discuss the growing industry of climbing in Arkansas. Dennis is the owner of Climb Solutions LLC and Vertical LLC. During the episode Dennis shares his personal journey with climbing in Northwest Arkansas and throughout the United States as well as his work now to expand climbing in the state of Arkansas. He outlines Arkansas' abundance of high quality, accessible rock formations and highlights the accessibility that is available only in our state for the sport. Dennis also shares his passion-driven path and important advice for pursuing interests, no matter the job.
Podcast Episode
Episode Transcript
Dennis Nelms 0:00
And when you look at the central US, and you look at what climbing availability there
is, if you go from Chicago to Houston, and then out to Oklahoma City, and over to
Memphis say 85% of the climbing in that whole area is here in the Ozarks.
Brent Williams 0:19
Welcome to the Be Epic podcast brought to you by the Sam M. Walton College of Business
at the University of Arkansas. I'm your host Brent Williams. Together, we'll explore
the dynamic landscape of business and uncover the strategies, insights, and stories
that drive business today. Well, today, I have with me, Dennis Nelms and Dennis owns
Climb Solutions LLC, based out of Northwest Arkansas. So Dennis, thanks for joining
me today.
Dennis Nelms 0:50
You're welcome. Thanks for having me here.
Brent Williams 0:52
Well, excited to have you here. And talk about outdoor recreation. We're going to
talk about climbing more specifically. But maybe I need to start with you. Tell me
a little bit about you. Tell me about your background. And then we'll kind of get
into how you got into climbing.
Dennis Nelms 1:11
Ok. So we don't have that much time. So I'll keep it short as I can. But I grew up
here in Fayetteville, went to the U of A and was introduced climbing and when I was
20. I was going to a fraternity and just I was a lost ex football player that had
no direction and just got hooked and just fell in love with it and decided that's
what I wanted to do with my time. And so I've over a period of time learned as much
as I could here in Northwest Arkansas and then set off for a 10 year journey and lived
out of my truck and traveled all over the country to different climbing areas and
destinations and worked around outdoor education in the summer times where I the focus
was climbing. But it was a lot of backpacking and soul searching for kids. And then
in the wintertime I worked around the ski industry as a ski technician working on
skis because I grew up working on cars as a kid. And that was kind of the beginning
of my journey. Fast forward three decades later. Here we are. Back in Arkansas. I
had worked with my dad on on development of of Adventure Subaru and worked really
hard on that. And then in 2013, I decided I want to get back to climbing and spend
more time on that. So started looking at other business ventures that would incorporate
climbing and kind of stumbled across climbing gyms I didn't do a lot of climbing in
gyms, actually been maybe half a dozen times before deciding that was where I was
going to spend some energy. And partnered with some guys out of Nashville and we built
Climb Bentonville. And in that I've since kind of stepped back and I'm not involved
in operations, and still kind of twiddling my thumbs thinking what am I gonna do next.
And then mer met the guys at Ropeswing in the process. Got got to really know Gary
Vernon. And he kept asking me questions about climbing. And so I was like, look, just,
let's, let's just start doing this consulting and I'll help you kind of formulate
a plan. And so over the last three years I've been working pretty, pretty much full
time on, you know, the strategy for accessibility for climbing in the state and what
does that really look like? You know, what we're trying to achieve is make this the
most accessible, accessible and easiest place to learn to climbing in this in the
country. You know, when you look at climbing areas across country, there's the Yosemite
valleys and the Grand Tetons and these amazing iconic places. Arkansas is never going
to be that but what they what we do have is a massive amount of moderate or easier
to middle easy climbing compared to most places in the country. So we've kind of brought
it down to the idea that we're really going to focus on what we have as an asset and
we're going to spend our time promoting that and going forward with that.
Brent Williams 4:29
Well, Dennis as a as a native Arkansan, you know, having grown up here and spent the
majority of my life here you know, I've I've always thought you know, what an amazing
set of assets this state has in the outdoors, you know, and, and you go across the
state and you know, Northwest Arkansas is beautiful, the, the delta is beautiful in
a different way, you know, and and then you go to South Arkansas and yet in another
way. So there's this diversity. But what's what I think is really cool is how as a
state we're really kind of embracing outdoor recreation and growing that economy.
And across the state, I just kind of wondered like, you know, how do you see that?
What are you seeing happening throughout the state?
Dennis Nelms 5:20
Well, I think for me to really understand and appreciate how much we really had, I
did need to leave and go to these most these amazing and iconic places. I mean, I
was backpacking in Sequoia and Kings Canyon with kids, or spending my time climbing
walls in Yosemite, or or going up and climbing Mount Rainier in Washington, and they
are all so amazing. But I, I kept coming back to how amazing Arkansas is and nobody
knows it. I mean, I would get questions like, oh, you know how to tie your shoes?
You're from Arkansas Oh. You mean you can you can read? You know, which I barely can.
But it's like, people really underestimate what we have here. And to your point, you
look at the Delta, my wife's from Dumas, Southeast Arkansas, and I never spent any
time down there. But the beauty there is phenomenal. Just those, those big Cottonwood
bottoms and just amazing terrain. And then you come up here and it's just these, the
relief when you go into the Buffalo area is 1000 feet. And that's big. And that's
I mean, it's really big compared to a lot of places. And those, the terrain there
is just incredibly rugged. And there's so much diversity in these these different
areas. And then you go to the Ouachitas and they're proper mountains. I was just climbing
down there about three months ago, and it felt like I was in the Sierras. And I just,
I never realized what we had before I left. And then when I came back, I was like,
oh my gosh, there's just so much here. And we were just tipping into it and and what
has been done with the cycling, it's just like opened the door. And I think that there's
when you look at the diversity of the terrain and the people that are coming here,
it's just, it's just blowing up in a lot of ways and it's just now starting.
Brent Williams 7:25
You know, as I was telling you earlier, you know, when I've had a chance to talk with
Gary Vernon, I felt very comfortable because, you know, I love to ride bicycles. And
I don't probably wouldn't have had I not been living here, but amazing accessibility,
to be able to ride a bicycle, whether that's on the Razorback Greenway, or a world
class mountain biking trail, I don't have any experience as a climber. And so I guess
a key part of the strategy of what you said that that was interesting to me is that
you're really trying to focus on you know, I guess the ability for someone to get
started into and easier to moderate climbs if I heard that correctly.
Dennis Nelms 8:13
And in there's been a huge uptick since the, over the last decade, with climbing gyms
becoming more and more prevalent, the accessibility of climbing is, is increasing
more and more. And when you look at the central US, and you look at what climbing
availability there is, if you go from Chicago to Houston, and then out to Oklahoma
City, and over to Memphis say 85% of the climate in that whole area is here in the
Ozarks. It is a huge density of really good high quality rock. And so as those gyms
pop up in those different Metro flexes and regions, people start getting more and
more curious. And so the availability of what does that really mean accessibility?
And I've really been thinking a lot about that it's accessible to culture, you know,
the different cultures, is it accessible to just general population? What does that
really look like? And how do you learn? I mean, you go to a YouTube video and trust
your life with it. I mean, that's a little scary. And then you go to a gym and, you
know, the gyms are about the environment inside those walls. And so part of this is
about how do we transition people from those gyms to more outdoor climbing and and
the adventurous side of climbing. You know, rightly so, if you're new to climbing
and you have no one to show you what's what to do. It can be very dangerous. There's
that's the reality of it. But with some education with some understanding, it becomes
very safe. In fact, I would argue, I've been hurt more on mountain bikes than I have
climbing in three decades.
Brent Williams 10:13
Well maybe I might kind of build off of that point and ask you a question. You know,
when you think about a University of Arkansas student, so, you know, roughly 32,000,
you know, ish students on this campus, we in the Walton College are going to have
between eight and 9000, you know, at a given time, and many have grown up here, many
have not, you know, the other parts of Arkansas, other states. And, you know, so I
think they're, they're an interesting audience here. Maybe they haven't ever been
climb, or they haven't grown up doing it. What do you suggest is the like, alright,
first step, is this?
Dennis Nelms 10:53
Yeah, get your toes wet.
Brent Williams 10:55
Yeah, exactly.
Dennis Nelms 10:56
Start with the Rec Center. There's a bouldering wall at the record center, and there
is a climbing wall, at the HPER, you know, go there, get a little bit of instruction
from them and get a sense of what it's like. It's not going to speak to everyone.
But those that it does speak to, they seem to be very passionate about it.
Brent Williams 11:17
Yeah.
Dennis Nelms 11:17
So you know, that's a good place to start. Then when you you know, if you feel that
that itch, then it's time to start looking at local gyms. Currently, there's about
three local gyms that you can start looking at and dabbling into climbing. And then
there's a plethora of, of resources out there to kind of look for areas to climb.
The big disconnect right now is that mentor to mentorship. So when I started climbing,
there was probably for one really seasoned climber, there were 10 other climbers that
wanted to get that mentorship. And it was an easy conversion, it wasn't so hard to
find those people. Today, it's like one in 150 and 200, who knows, there's not a ton
of old turds like me running around that are, you know, excited about instruction.
So it's, it's, there is kind of this disconnect right now. But there are a lot of
organizations out there that you can get good information from NOLS is where I went
National Outdoor Leadership School, they're based out of Lander, Wyoming, American
Alpine Club, another great organization, the access fund, these are that's a conservation.
They, they preserve for debt climbing for, for climbers getting involved in and then
locally, there's a great organization called the Arkansas climbers coalition,
Brent Williams 12:43
Okay.
Dennis Nelms 12:44
And this is made up of climbers, it's all volunteer, they do. They go out and they
work on trying to make sure things are safe for climbers, they rebolt old equipment
that's, that's out there, and they try to update it. And so there's a lot of education
involved in that. They put on a huge thing every spring, Arkansas Climbers Festival,
and that's another incredible resources for people to learn how to do it.
Brent Williams 13:12
Interesting. Well, I get this question comes to mind. You know, I mean, of course,
I've known climbing existed. And like I said, I haven't really haven't really done
it. But the movie free solo or the documentary free solo came out. Right. And that's
been a few years ago. I assume that is that a wonder if it's a blessing or a curse
to climbing?
Dennis Nelms 13:36
It's a blessing in a lot of ways. Yeah. Now, I will tell you I know Alex,
Brent Williams 13:40
Okay.
Dennis Nelms 13:40
I've met him before and we've actually climbed together. He is a very calculated,
smart individual. They make him out as this kind of quirky dude, he's not
Brent Williams 13:50
Okay.
Dennis Nelms 13:51
He's, he's, he very much knows what he's doing when he does it. And, you know, it
was an incredible feat what he did, and before him, Kevin Jorgensen and Tommy Caldwell
doing the Dawn Wall, there was a seven year endeavor for them to do that, that route.
And those things kind of perpetuate climbing to the front line. Whereas it's always
been on the fringe. But, you know, that kind of climbing is, is on the upper upper
upper upper end.
Brent Williams 14:25
Yeah.
Dennis Nelms 14:25
And, you know, so it's not the everyday experience. You know, the everyday experience
is, you and me going out and I lead up and set up the ropes and you go up and you're
comfortably there. And if you fall you just stop and nothing happens. You give it
a second, then you get your hands back on and keep keep climbing. And the equipment
that we use is incredibly redundant. It's like the the amount of force it takes to
break the equipment is about 10 times what the body could withstand.
Brent Williams 15:04
Okay.
Dennis Nelms 15:04
So it's not going to give, it's only human error. And that goes back to the education
piece. Where you find that mentor? What how do you get educated to do this? So, yeah
Brent Williams 15:19
Well, I know that I knew that I had to at least have create a increased interest.
Uh, you know, over time
Dennis Nelms 15:25
It did. The accident numbers haven't changed. You know, the, the amount of people
coming to the sport has not, like ticked up dramatically, it already is going 10 fold
every year. Well, 10%, over year over year, okay, for the last decade. You know, I
think it did spark that, like that adventurous side and climbers. Yeah, and get them
kind of excited about what's new. And what's exciting in climbing.
Brent Williams 15:58
Well, let's maybe talk about climbing and how it relates to the economy. So, you know,
I would say, when I think about the connection between outdoor recreation, our economy,
I guess I think about it in a couple of ways, we'd love to get your thoughts, and
I'm sure you're thinking about it. Even more in depth, but but one, these experiences
add quality of life, or, you know, and as, as people choose to found businesses, and
grow their businesses here, and or relocate their businesses here, I think this is
an important part of the economic development story of our state. And then I believe
that anytime, you know, you see, you see an industry start to pop up. Well, now there's
economic development around that industry, the different businesses to support it.
So how are you thinking about that?
Dennis Nelms 16:54
Well, I think as a business owner, and I look at, like places that I would want to
be and the places that I've been, you know, we really have a good here. I mean, we,
we really have an amazing community. And then on top of that, all of a sudden, we
actually have better recreation than most places in the country. And people are just
not realizing it. Now, we as native Arkansans, probably you already knew this, right?
I mean, I did. But I just knew that it had not been tapped into like it is today.
And so that narrative of you mean, you wear shoes, or, you know, what's going on in
Arkansas? Where is that exactly That narrative is shifting. And so, you know, when
I look at living spaces for a business, if I think about what is it that's really
going to attract people to my business, it's what we do in our, in our time, what
we choose to do is the most important time of our lives, we choose to go to work.
But we have to, we choose to drive a car, but we have to, we choose to ride a bike,
because we want to
Brent Williams 18:13
Yeah,
Dennis Nelms 18:14
We choose the fish, because that's our, that's what really pushes us, we choose to
climb because that is what really gets us excited to live. And when you have a place
that gives you so many options like we have here, it's a no brainer. I mean, if I
want to recruit good quality staff, if I'm looking to really perpetuate a good quality
company, I know that inevitably, it comes down to how happy those people really are.
And if they are live in a space, that gives them the opportunity to have happiness,
you're gonna hit a homerun, you know.
Brent Williams 18:54
Yeah, I mean, it's a key part of the value proposition of living in this state. And
I think why people are seeing this state as a place that they want to move to, and
that clearly has been the case, it was the case pre pandemic, but that certainly accelerated
to some degree and it's, as you know, still growing
Dennis Nelms 19:14
You I'm a great example of it. I was an Arkansan that was just like, you know, I got
what I got, but I'm gonna go really see the big world. And I went and did it. And
I lived in some most some of the most iconic places in the country lives in Santa
Cruz, California and jet and Jackson Hole, Wyoming, and Portland, Oregon. You know,
these places are amazing in their own right. But every place I went, I was like, yeah,
it's not as good as just like, it's cool. You know, it's amazing in its own way, but
it's like when you try to put the whole package together when I think about when I
thought about raising a family. I immediately thought about coming back here is just
the this how much we have here. It's all there, it's just not really seen as much
as those other places. And it kind of goes back to what we have, you know, as far
as like the terrain and things like that it can be the capital of the world in a lot
of ways. But it can also be the best place to grow. And to have growth as an individual,
in a lot of ways, too.
Brent Williams 20:27
Yeah, it's just a wonderful place to grow a business. And, you know, as you think
about what opportunities you see around climbing, coming, you know, over the next,
and I don't know how far you're thinking out three 5, 10 years, you know, but how
do you see that economy specifically around climbing, needing to develop maybe is
the right question?
Dennis Nelms 20:50
Yeah, well, I think that as businesses continue to develop, you know, and as employees
age over time, you know, you're not going to always be able to push yourself to the
hardest levels, especially into my age. You know, it's more the accessibility of those
things. And, you know, when you start looking at, I can see me climb till I'm 90,
it just as long as I don't fall off my bike.
Brent Williams 21:23
Not fall off the side of a mountain, I see.
Dennis Nelms 21:26
You know, I can see that here. Yeah, it's not, it's not out of the realm. And so that
accessibility here is just like, I mean, I got climbing 10 minutes outdoors, ten minutes
from my house. And there's not a lot of places in the country, you can do that.
Brent Williams 21:44
You know, when I, when I talked with Gary, that was a key learning about the cycling
strategy, in in our state was having it in about accessibility, but proximity to where
people live. And so you see that same thing in climbing?
Dennis Nelms 22:00
Well, Gary's a really smart dude. And, you know, it really he keyed me into this very
early on is like, realizing how important that is, that is really turning development
of climbing on its head. Because what it's always been is go out and do your hard
project, like the Dawn Wall, and, you know, or we're, you know, you go to that project,
and you do it well, what we're doing here is we're we're taking the cues from the
cycling and saying, no, we're going to develop the local areas first. And then you,
then you get interested in your projects. And so we're really turning it upside down
in the climbing community. And it's really, you know, when, when, when Gary and all
those guys started working on this, people were like, this isn't gonna work. This
is, this is crazy. Now they're coming here going, how did you do this? We want to
do it. You know, and I, I foresee, this being the conduit for shockwaves, across the
climate community across the country, the way we're approaching this, this overall
strategy for the state. You know, it's just really different the way it's ever been
approached.
Brent Williams 23:19
And do you see, you know, for the different areas of focus in Northwest Arkansas,
and Arkansas, more broadly, around cycling, and climbing and paddling? I assume you're
seeing synergies across those different ones, particularly from a tourism standpoint?
Dennis Nelms 23:36
That's right. And I think the big takeaway there is, the big takeaway for me is, take
the assets that you have and look at those things and how can you maximize them here
in Arkansas, and draw from that? If you've got a rock outcropping close to your downtown
center, focus on that, if you've got a river or stream, focus on that, if you've got
these amazing deltas, focus on that, but really look at the natural resources and
figure out how to promote those things. Because right now, you go down in areas and
those are kind of in the ditches. But the reality is, that's the gold for these communities.
That's where they can really revitalize these these rural areas that are they're losing
every day.
Brent Williams 24:29
But that is a natural asset that really can be leveraged in a strong way. I agree
with you.
Dennis Nelms 24:34
That is your gold. To me, it's like that's exactly what we're doing with the cycling.
We are taking the terrain and turning it into gold. I mean, Bella Vista is a great
example. I mean, that terrain has been sitting there for eons and no one knew what
to do with it. And all they had to do was say yes, and now they got 80 miles a trail
that is phenomenal.
Brent Williams 24:59
Phenomenal trails. That's exactly right. Well, as you sort of look back at your journey,
I'm interested in some of your learnings, and particularly maybe, you know, you were
a U of A student that at one time, so if you were, if you were looking back and you
know, getting one to pursue this passion of climbing, and I know, you know, you spent
many years working in the automotive industry and your family's business that was
very customer service focused, just you know, you're kind of talking to that student
what's, what's some key learnings and advice?
Dennis Nelms 25:35
I think, you know, doing the work, you know, being willing to put the time in, but
the only way to do that, and this may sound cliche, but follow your passion, whatever
that is. My dad loved drag racing when he was 10 years old. His dad was a mechanic.
And so what did he do? He followed his passion, became one of the most prominent car
dealers in Northwest Arkansas. He was the dealer of the year last year for Subaru,
you know, after almost five decades, in that business, follow your passion. You know,
and this is, it's hard to separate that when you are struggling to make ends meet,
paying off those loans doing what you do, and you commit yourself to something. But
at the end of the day, if you follow that passion, you're going to spend that extra
mot minute you're going to, you're going to wake up in the middle, like that's the
answer. That's it. Because it's in you. It's no, it's not external to you.
Brent Williams 26:46
Yeah, yeah. I love that notion of something you said about one being present and working
hard, I continue to hear that, you know, in just about everybody I talked to, like,
just do great at what you're doing. Love it, you know, and pursue what you really
enjoy. And there's a lot of passion, a lot, a lot of joy in that.
Dennis Nelms 27:08
The only other thing I'd say there is there's no job underneath anyone. And the reason
I say that is because I mean, at one point, I was picking food out of dumpsters to
make ends meet to go climb. That was my passion. And sometimes you just have to pick
up the mop and mop the floor no matter what happens, because that's what has to happen.
And I think that there's a disconnect there with a lot of people, it's like, oh, if
I can't do that job, I'm not going to do a job, then that's just not the way success
works.
Brent Williams 27:50
You know, I think I think that's a great characteristic of many of the great leaders
that we know, that have always been willing to do to do any job, you know, and whatever
it takes to get that job done.
Dennis Nelms 28:05
Well my dad when I was a kid, he told me this, he probably didn't remember saying
this. He's like, son, you can run a business, taking care of the coffeemaker. You
know, you, you do the work, you put the time in, and you will figure out how to make
things work.
Brent Williams 28:20
Well, Dennis, thank you for what you're doing in our region and in our state to advance
outdoor recreation and the economy around it. Thanks for being willing to come back
and spend some time with us today.
Dennis Nelms 28:34
Awesome. Yeah. It's great to be back at the university.
Brent Williams 28:37
Wonderful. Well, thank you so much.
Dennis Nelms 28:39
Thank you.
Brent Williams 28:41
On behalf of the Walton College thank you for joining us for this captivating conversation.
To stay connected and never miss an episode. Simply search for be epic on your preferred
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Brent D. Williams is the Dean of the Sam M. Walton College of Business at the University of Arkansas.
With a deep commitment to fostering excellence in business education and thought leadership,
Dr. Williams brings a wealth of experience to his role, shaping the future of the
college and its impact on students and the business community.
