This week on the podcast, Matt talks to Chad Clinehens, President and CEO of Zweig Group. They begin the episode by discussing Chad's background as a two time graduate of the University of Arkansas in engineering and business. Chad was able to leverage his engineering and MBA background to elevate his work in the AEC (architecture, engineering and construction) industry through strategic planning, M&A, consulting, and more. Later in the episode Chad provides insights on implementing strategic plans, engaging employees, confronting weaknesses, and driving growth. He also shares how Zweig Group leverages decades of data and case studies to help firms grow, and stresses the importance of intersecting business with other disciplines.
Episode Transcript
Chad Clinehens 0:00
And I think it's really important that aspiring leaders understand the business, being
good at engineering or architecture or environmental consulting. Those are all very,
obviously very important for the business to grow and thrive. But understanding the
business is what ultimately allows you to create the opportunity and for it to have
longevity.
Matt Waller 0:27
Excellence, professionalism, innovation, and collegiality. These are the values the
Sam M. Walton College of Business explores in education, business and the lives of
people we meet every day. I'm Matt Waller, Dean of the Walton College, and welcome
to the be epic podcast. I have with me today. Chad Clinehens, President and CEO of
Zweig group. Thank you so much for joining me today, Chad.
Chad Clinehens 0:52
Thank you, Matt. It's an honor and privilege to be here.
Matt Waller 0:55
Well, Chad, you, I want to start with you. And then we'll talk about Zweig Group.
But you started here at the University studying civil engineering, you got your bachelor's
degree in civil engineering. And then you went and got your MBA here. But during the
time that you were getting your MBA, at least you were already a civil engineer with
a civil engineering firm here in town. And and then you went to Garver in Little Rock,
and really, you were there for 13 years. Would you tell us just a little bit about
Garver and what you did there?
Chad Clinehens 1:33
Yeah. So Garver was really the mark of my, the beginning of my engineering career,
I did intern at a firm here in Fayetteville, and actually it was that experience and
a civil engineer who worked there who also got his MBA here that helped inspire me
to go straight through and but once I had the the MBA, I was able to go full time
into starting, I would say the residency which is similar to a I would say something
a doctor does, there's four years to get a professional engineers license, which is
very important in consulting engineering, so I moved to Little Rock after graduating
the Walton College, started my career with Garver, and almost immediately wanted to
put my MBA to work and got frustrated, because it was difficult to do. But but realize
that as an engineer, you have to really build your practice, learn how the business
works, how clients purchase services, and, and so I was in what I would say full time
design work for probably about three years, then spent some time over in the Tulsa
office and transferred over there to work with that team. And just as soon as I could,
and I pushed pretty hard. Once I got my professional engineers license, I was able
to get into business development. And that was really just at the time cold calling
new or potential clients for Garver. And that is what got my foot into the door in
the door of the what I would say the business side of the of the business. And, you
know, typically in engineering firms, and we see this a lot at Zweig Group or what
we say AEC firms, which is architecture, engineering, construction, or consulting,
that that industry is that, you know, they're run by people who have degrees in the
profession or the type of service they're delivering. And so the business side is
a small part of the business. And you don't really get there until you've been around
for a really long time and have a lot of experience. But as I said, my my interest
in getting on the business side, really guided my career. And so I moved into business
development, and then ultimately marketing strategy. And it was just something that
I had a really developed I would say a love for and the CEO at the time of Garver,
Brock Johnson, could see that passion that drive in me, so relocated me to the corporate
office of Little Rock in 2006. And I took over chief marketing officer position. And
then ultimately, the chief strategy officer position. And it was that time period
in 2006 to 2013, where we launched our first what I would say, really significant
strategic plan for the company. And that was transformational for the growth. And
I led a rebranding and restructuring of the organization. And several other of the
I would say the key initiatives that really, I would say created the change there
that that ultimately led them at the time, 200 staff members that they had grown over
86 years. And now, since 2006, they're now up to 1200, I believe plus employees. And
it's the power of a strategic plan, which is what ultimately led me to join Zweig
group. And is something now I do on a daily basis. And in fact, recently, last year
started teaching Strategic Management here at the Walton College, as part of being
able to put what we see and how we help firms into practice. And then sharing that
with students is kind of bringing the content alive.
Matt Waller 5:34
I want to talk about Zweig group as well. You're president and CEO, and have been
for almost seven years. But before we do you mentioned strategic planning. And I've
been around strategic planning a lot in my life, I've seen it work well, I've seen
it not work well. What I mean by that is sometimes, you know, strategic planning is
viewed as a task that you accomplish. And then you move on to the next thing. You
know, some people because they've experienced that become cynical about it. But good
strategic planning can make a huge difference. Would you mind speaking to it a little
bit?
Chad Clinehens 6:15
Oh, absolutely. You have to hope that, that your clients haven't seen the stat that
70% of strategic plans are, are viewed as a failure. And I think the reason behind
that is because so many leaders look at it as a check the box activity, especially
in this space, where professional services, there's not the understanding, and I'm
not sure if respect is the right word, but but really understanding of the business
and how important and transformational strategic plan can be. So they go to some conference
and they hear you need to have a strategic plan. And so they hire somebody or, or
they attempt to step themselves through it and then get frustrated, because when they
go back to work, many of them go back to work designing infrastructure, designing
homes, working on a, you know, a construction project, and because they are working
in the business versus on it and then we talked about that a lot last week, we had
we hosted a CEO roundtable in Napa Valley, so we had CEOs from all over the country
gathered there. And we talked a lot about working in the business versus working on
it and and events like that, where you get together and talk about the business. You're
working on it. And it's important. It's an important aspect. At Zweig group, I would
say that we are wildly successful in strategic planning, because we do emphasize the
importance of implementation. And actually, I would say our plans are fairly simple,
in that they're clear, there's not too many objectives. They're rooted in what we
say is data and stories. So real data we've gathered, what their clients are doing,
what their employees are thinking and how they're feeling. And we look at their financials,
we look at every aspect of the organization. And we put that together with in the
story side is case studies. What have we seen work in this industry? What doesn't
work in this industry, we are not reading the latest management fad book, you know,
on strategic planning and using buzzwords, we are really focused on, again, the case
studies of things that work and helping firms design a plan that they can actually
go out and execute.
Matt Waller 8:30
You know, in my experience with strategic planning, I've seen them that where they've
been so complicated in so many pages, it was hard to get your head around. But I've
also seen strategic plans where there's nothing strategy strategic about it, it's
a plan. It's a plan for the future, but it's not strategic.
Chad Clinehens 8:53
Right.
Matt Waller 8:53
How do you get clients to differentiate between those?
Chad Clinehens 8:58
So for us, we really talk a lot about the importance of growth and the importance
of building value in the company. And so really tying it to something that everybody
benefits from and, and what every but what does every business need to do needs to
grow. And so especially in this industry, and especially right now, where it is the
busiest I think if you pulled anybody and we do on a daily basis, it's the busiest
it's ever been in history, at least going as far back as we've been doing research
and before us. There wasn't really a lot of research being done on the end.
Matt Waller 9:38
Is that true across all three architecture, engineering and construction?
Chad Clinehens 9:42
I would say so, engineering is especially I would almost say overheated right now,
the demand for especially infrastructure. Some of that's being driven by the government,
and then also what's coming down the pipeline with the infrastructure jobs act, which
we see hitting later this year. So already demand is unprecedented. We've got work
weeks that are longer than they've ever been, then you go to your organization with
a strategic plan and say, We want to grow this thing faster than we've been growing
and into the average employee, that means more work. But what we say is growth solves
problems. And growth creates the opportunity gives you the resources, to hire people,
to actually, again solving those problems, but but bringing the resource to relieve
the areas there that are overheated or give the project manager that's overworked
the resources he or she needs to to have a better balance in their life.
Matt Waller 10:45
Growth does solve problems, no question. A lot of times people admit managers administrators
want the resources before the growth because they see the need they want to prepare.
Chad Clinehens 11:03
Right.
Matt Waller 11:03
How do you integrate that into the overall process those those trade offs like that?
Chad Clinehens 11:08
We talk a lot about return on investment, and that there are certain things you have
to prioritize initially, almost that how do we create the spark? How do we where do
we deploy resources initially, that then can can start producing returns, we say easy
wins, you know, base hits, whatever we can do to really jumpstart the growth, and
then people can see it. And you know, I'll say one thing that's really important about
the plans we put together. And it goes back to my days at Garver is that strategic
plans are largely a marketing campaign. You know, it's going to the company and saying,
here's who we want to be in the future. And here's why that's exciting. And here's
your role in that. And so when I say our plans are simple, it's they're not the the
100 page book that I think a lot of leaders think they're going to get this top secret
manual that they put in the safe, behind the painting behind their desk, you know,
kind of hide it from everybody. Whereas our plans are actually a presentation that's
built, that we then deliver, that it is designed to be shared with the entire company.
And we say, when you launch this, have a big party, have a champagne toast, send gifts
to the all the employees, you do something to create a party atmosphere and say this
is a celebration, we're going to do something amazing together. And this is what that
looks like. And, and the most successful firms that we work with get that and they
really integrate it into their business their day. And it's not something that sits
on the shelf. It's something that they can talk about in every meeting, they can talk
about an employee reviews, and every individual has a role. We say in driving growth
of the organization, every single person.
Matt Waller 12:58
How did you become interested and knowledgeable about strategic planning your I know
you have when you were at Garver, you did a lot of strategic planning for them. And
you were the chief strategy officer. But you have there's lots of nuance to it, like
your idea of having a party, making sure everyone knows they're engaged in the strategic
plan and in executing strategic plan. That's a lot of nuance. And I've heard you talk
about it before. How did you learn all this?
Chad Clinehens 13:29
That's a good question. For me in my career, the intersection of marketing, marketing
strategy and just strategy of the company is so it's amazing how intertwined it is.
And and so that was kind of a natural path, I just business development, which was
me going out and meeting new clients and trying to secure contracts and the excitement
of we got a new client. In fact, early on in my career, we set a goal in our small
regional office in Tulsa to win five new clients a year well, well we won eight. And
I realized then that, you know, the strategic plan, the idea that we're going to grow
this office, wrapped around a marketing campaign is very effective. And so then when
I got into more of the marketing strategy, it just happened to intersect. That following
year with our visionary leader Brock Johnson, his desire to really change the course
of the company and been in business at that time, I believe, 86 years. And straight
line growth. Great company did good work for their clients, but it was let's turn
this into a growing organization. Let's do a strategic plan. And we just kind of figured
it out. But but one thing me pushing really hard on the campaign behind it, which
we called it Mission Possible, was the catchy phrase and I credit Brock Johnson for
coming up with that. But But talking about mission possible. For five years, it was
a, we're gonna double the size of the company in five years. Interestingly, launched
in 2006. Well, what happened in 2008 recession that really affected significantly,
I would say the industry as a whole, but but especially the private sector, our company
was not as affected. We did have some private, I would say business lines, but we
really quickly sent those folks that were in that in those business lines, to learn
some new skills to where we could reorient them around some sectors that did have
money. And I think it was the strategic plan, the fact that we were so committed to
growth, that is why we were so quick to say, Well, hey, let's not lay off these, these
two teams of people. Engineers are hard to find, let's find something for them to
do, and invest in them.
Matt Waller 15:58
So you clearly have a passion for strategic planning. You've seen it work when you,
I remember the first time we had lunch together, you told me the story about your
work at Garver and the strategic planning. And so you've been doing this for a long
time, I can tell in multiple conversations with you that you are a true believer in
strategic planning. And what are some of the most important variables you think exists
in having a successful strategic plan, but also, what are some of the biggest hindrances
to it?
Chad Clinehens 16:42
So I would say one of the most important things is for leaders to be able to confront
the things that are holding them back. So the strategic planning process is very well,
like I said, data research oriented, you know, we, our processes last five, six months,
maybe for some of the more involved plans, we can do them sometimes quicker. But but
that process is, so much of that is research, getting to know the company and really
digging deep and finding out what are the things that make this company special, what
are the things that holds them back? We talked about the SWOT analysis. And we do
that and we talked about that in, in our strategic management class up here at the
university too, it's very important that the SWOT analysis, understanding the strengths,
weaknesses, opportunities, opportunities and threats, is critical. So the leader being
able to then I would say, do the hard things. And there often are some hard things
you have to do to create that change to affect that change. And, and then also be
willing to put the right people on the team, you can't have everybody in the room,
you as a leader, you've got to pick. And we recommend, you know, five, eight, hopefully
no more than 10. Sometimes the group's a little bit bigger than that. But people that
you can get together that when everybody walks out of that room, even though they
may not be equally excited about every aspect of the plan, or maybe not even agree
with every aspect, but chosen to be a part of that team, that they walk out being
ambassadors of the plan, they can sell it to anybody in the company, and the company
can see that they believe in it. And that's what we say is the price of admission
to the strategic planning, War Room.
Matt Waller 18:36
Having had I've taught at all different levels, undergrad, grad, and all different
levels of grad. One of the things I've noticed, of course, my area is supply chain
management. And there's a component of strategic planning in supply chain management.
But I've noticed undergraduates many times struggle with this, especially but our
Executive MBA students, which have on average 13 years of experience before they get
in the program. They're all over it. How do you get undergraduate students to see
the importance of this?
Chad Clinehens 19:16
That's a great question. And one of the reasons that I really enjoy teaching this
class it it was the first class I was invited to teach and happened to be an incredible
fit for what we do. But I tell the students, I say listen, what we're going to talk
about, you're going to read case studies. And a lot of this stuff is going to feel
like it's focused on like, the executive level and you're thinking, oh, this will
be relevant to me when I'm 20 years in, I said, but think about what this is. This
is strategic management of your life. And you can employ these fundamentals immediately,
gathering information on the environment, deciding what you want to do. by setting
a growth goal, whether that's your net worth, or you know how you want to grow your
career, thinking about the money side of it, or the position side of it, and really
managing your life strategically. And so these things that we're going to learn here
are immediately applicable. And also just understanding how any company or business
you get in works is a powerful perspective. And don't segment this knowledge off,
you know, is okay, well, this is great. And maybe someday I'll be a part of a strategic
planning team. It's so powerful for you today, to think about it beyond just the context
of a career but your life.
Matt Waller 20:51
Let's talk about Zweig group a little bit. Tell us a little bit about Zweig group.
What makes Zweig group notable?
Chad Clinehens 20:59
Well, I would say that we're one of the first companies that does what we do in this
industry, and started by Mark Zweig now 35 years ago in Boston. And it's interesting,
if you look at where companies are located that do this kind of thing. There's many
of them are in Boston, and you can look at it, many companies that were formed out
of former Zweig Group employees. But what really makes Zweig group unique is that
wide of a perspective, 35 years. And so Mark Zweig built his career working with 1000s
of companies, and the stories that Mark Zweig tells then I'm able to adopt, and the
stories that I have from Garver and from other companies that I've worked with here
at Zweig Group, others are able to adopt. And so those those stories are case studies.
And you can see what, okay, maybe something that did work in 97 doesn't work in, in,
you know, 2023, or it might
Matt Waller 22:04
Right
Chad Clinehens 22:04
Right, something that I would say also makes us unique is that we are data researchers
and analysts. And, and so we've got this 35 years of data, and we've seen how it changes.
And we know what's going on in the industry real time. And we use that to drive our
content. We're not just trying to make stuff up, we're getting people excited and
making up new buzzwords.
Matt Waller 22:29
Many times people don't know about it, unless they're in the industry itself.
Chad Clinehens 22:36
Right.
Matt Waller 22:37
Although Mark's name is widely known, he's he's a good marketer, too.
Chad Clinehens 22:42
Indeed,
Matt Waller 22:43
I know you, you also do a lot of other things beyond strategic planning. You all are
engaged in mergers and acquisitions, and all kinds of consulting, tell us a little
bit about how m&a works and the AAC industry and is there a lot of activity currently
in that area?
Chad Clinehens 23:06
it is a red hot area right now of the business of the industry, private equity has
really come into the industry very strongly in the last several years, that's really
changed the game. And, and so consolidation is happening. There's also you know, when
you look at transition of a company, you have founder starts a company, then they
get close to retirement, they either have to have people inside the company that can
buy him or her out, or some group of, of leaders, or they've got to find some other
way to transition it. And so so they're leaders that have waited too late, which is
it's very common. You know, you've got to be thinking what you're going to do with
your business 10, a minimum of 10 years out, but but we get calls from leaders and
they say, hey, I'm thinking about transitioning out in five years, what do I need
to do? We're like, well, we gotta get to work real quickly.
Matt Waller 24:10
Chad, tell us a little bit about which areas of the business you focus on. And really,
what is the core of your business?
Chad Clinehens 24:20
Well, that's a great question. The short answer is we focus on all of the areas of
the business. So every aspect, we talked about ownership transition, we can go in
and help build recruiting programs, we can help a company buy other companies or sell
their company. Of course, we've talked a lot about strategic planning. We can help
them rebrand their company. So every single aspect of the business but but what's
interesting about that, and it's neat, to be able to do that and to be that kind of
a resource for the industry. It also presents a challenge for us if there's so much
that we focus on, right. And, and so we to get good at those areas, we just make sure
we've got good leadership, and they really have some autonomy in almost building a
mini business inside our business. And so the ability to connect to people and find
those experts out in the industry that can then come and present, what we would say
is a practical and applicable approach to these things, when there's a lot of misinformation
is a neat thing to be able to do. But it's also not easy, you know, as figuring out,
okay, where should we be on this particular topic? And, and then, you know, deciding
all of the sudden that that wasn't in our strategic plan, we didn't start necessarily
this year saying, hey, AI is gonna be a super hot topic that all of a sudden, in May
is just gonna, like, light the industry up. That's essentially what's been happening.
And there's been others that have been looking at this earlier than that, but it really
has become a hot topic. And so for us to be able to then add that part into our what
I would say our cadre of expertise is a neat thing that also presents a challenge.
Matt Waller 26:22
Chad, you have a lot of experience here at the university, both as a student two time
student, two time alum, your names on the sidewalk twice, you're teaching here, you've
worked in the area, what advice would you want on a billboard? If all the students
could see this billboard every day walking around campus? What would you have on the
billboard?
Chad Clinehens 26:46
What I would say is the the answer is that I of course, love my profession, of engineering,
but the intersection of that, and business and the arts and all of the different colleges
that we have here on campus, I think students have got to understand, you don't just
get a business degree and just go to business and you don't just get an engineering
degree, and just do engineering, that the intersection of arts and business and engineering
and all of the different things that you can learn up here on campus, have an application
to your life and to really find something that you will enjoy doing. And then realize
that you're not limiting yourself. But I think we do need to promote more what we
do all of us, you know, what a career looks like in whatever it is. And of course,
I'm a huge believer in and proponent of STEM and, and the professions that are related
to engineering because the world needs that. But just as much we need the business
executives, we need the artist, we need everybody else that helps kind of make this
world go round.
Matt Waller 26:46
Chad, we've talked about all kinds of things regarding your background and Zweig group,
including strategic planning. So I'm really interested what is the mission of Zweig
group?
Chad Clinehens 28:21
The mission of Zweig group is simply to elevate the industry. And if you go back to
the founding of Zweig group by Mark Zweig it was to bring business acumen and to help
AEC firms grow, understand the business, drive performance, create opportunity. And
in 2018, we rolled out what I would say is a refined version of that to simply elevate
the industry. And we use the quote from John F. Kennedy, a rising tide lifts all ships,
so every company, we can help, maybe drive greater growth, drive greater profits,
create more resources for their people, so they live better lives. That then as a
part of that rising tides of every company that we can impact. Because there's multiple
aspects of of why we need to elevate the industry. We need more kids to be interested
in what a career is, and can be in this industry. We need the rest of the public to
understand the impact that Architects, Engineers, the construction industry has on
the world around them. And so all of that led to this this big idea, I call it of
elevate the industry and it's been something that really people have gotten around
our clients like it they they like the simplicity of it. They like the rallying cry
behind elevate the industry and especially when they're really trying to find how
can they get more staff and and knowing that we need to inspire the younger generation
to choose a career here. That is something that I think is going to be timeless for
us. And we, we talk about missions being somewhat timeless for companies, you know,
the vision changes along the way. But the mission is timeless and so elevate the industry
is a is an exciting for me and the rest of our company, a way to bring us together
and get us to understand and get excited about. We're making a big impact here. And
we're elevating individuals, firms and then ultimately the industry.
Matt Waller 30:37
Chad, thank you so much for taking time to visit with us today. I really appreciate
it.
Chad Clinehens 30:41
Thank you, Matt. Appreciate it.
Matt Waller 30:43
On behalf of the Sam M. Walton College of Business, I want to thank everyone for spending
time with us for another engaging conversation. You can subscribe by going to your
favorite podcast service and searching. Be Epic B E E P I C
