In the age of #MeToo, respecting other’s autonomy is at the forefront of the media. But when work cultures sometimes blur lines, how do you respond? This episode breaks down actionable tips you can use to practice the business ethics principle of avoiding discrimination and harassment.
Podcast:
Episode Transcript
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00:03 Cindy Moehring: Welcome to this edition of the BIS, the Business Integrity school, your resource for practical tips from a business ethics pro who's been there. I'm Cindy Moehring, the Founder and Executive Chair of the Business Integrity Leadership Initiative at the Sam M. Walton College of Business. Joining me today is Dr. Matt Waller, Dean of the Walton College.
00:21 Dr. Matt Waller: So principle number three is respect everyone's autonomy. What does that mean?
00:29 Cindy Moehring: So, being very practical about it, it comes down to making sure you don't treat anyone like a second class citizen, so it brings to bear the issues of discrimination and the issues of harassment, you gotta respect everyone's autonomy in a business relationship.
00:43 Dr. Matt Waller: And it seems like for as far back as I can remember, there's been evidence of this happening, but lately, it's really taken off with #MeToo.
00:54 Cindy Moehring: Yeah, yes, it sure did, yeah. It really started in the media area in 2017, and with Harvey Weinstein and Matt Lauer and a whole host of others, Roger Ailes and just Epstein, Jeffrey Epstein, many of them are still in the news today, but it bled over into the business community as well, and we just seem to have reached a tipping point, I think, on that particular issue, and women feeling more comfortable, not just raising their voices, but recognizing that they were gonna be heard. And one recent example that bled over into the business world was with a real iconic brand, McDonald's. And so, I thought we would just talk about that one for a little bit and how it, what happened there really implicates this business ethics principle.
01:40 Dr. Matt Waller: Well, and McDonald's had a policy that you weren't allowed to have a romantic relationship with a direct or an indirect report. Some companies allow that.
01:51 Cindy Moehring: Yeah, well, yes, but what I would say is, most, a lot of companies have policies that would say, "You may have a relationship with someone else in the company, but if there's a direct or indirect relationship, then we gotta find a different... "
02:05 Dr. Matt Waller: And it has to be disclosed.
02:06 Cindy Moehring: And disclosed, you gotta find a different place for them to work, so it isn't as though you can't have a relationship at companies, but when you're the CEO of the company, pretty much everybody...
02:14 Dr. Matt Waller: Everybody.
02:14 Cindy Moehring: Is your direct or indirect report, right?
02:16 Dr. Matt Waller: And that's the problem with this case.
02:17 Cindy Moehring: So that was the problem in this particular case, yes. So he was... Somebody did speak up in this case, so that's the good news, and the board did an investigation and found it to be true, and he did get fired for that for having an inappropriate relationship, but the more important point here, I think is in addition to that, what it brought to light was this party culture that existed at McDonald's and it actually becomes systemic, so it was more of a macro company issue, I think the new CEO has got his hands around it now and he's definitely set a different tone, but it existed for a long period of time.
02:52 Dr. Matt Waller: I heard that someone in particular started that party culture, do you know who it was?
02:57 Cindy Moehring: I don't know who it was.
03:00 Dr. Matt Waller: Ronald McDonald.
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03:00 Dr. Matt Waller: He's, you know, you look at him...
03:02 Cindy Moehring: Well, you do.
03:03 Dr. Matt Waller: You can tell, this guy has a party way about him.
03:06 Cindy Moehring: Well, he's a clown, right?
03:07 Dr. Matt Waller: He's a clown, yeah.
03:08 Cindy Moehring: So, I mean, you know, and when you think of a clown, you think of parties. [chuckle]
03:10 Dr. Matt Waller: Yeah, so, exactly, and they were just having fun.
03:12 Cindy Moehring: They were just having a good time.
03:14 Dr. Matt Waller: But that particular...
03:15 Cindy Moehring: But it did get out of control.
03:16 Dr. Matt Waller: Yeah, Ronald McDonald didn't intend for it to be...
03:19 Cindy Moehring: No.
03:19 Dr. Matt Waller: Come that kind of a party.
03:21 Cindy Moehring: Right.
03:22 Dr. Matt Waller: But that kind of a partying culture where there's flirting and things like that, that's where it crosses the line.
03:28 Cindy Moehring: Well, that's where it starts to get really gray, right? Particularly when you have, it's you've got Mr. Easterbrook and even the head of HR was showing up sometimes at these parties and...
03:38 Dr. Matt Waller: Oh!
03:39 Cindy Moehring: And so then in addition to the issues that we're talking about, which is respecting everyone's autonomy, you get this extra layer of questions about, "Well, am I expected to go to rise through the company, do I need to be seen in that environment even if it makes me uncomfortable?" So there's a whole other host of issues that come out of that kind of a culture.
03:58 Dr. Matt Waller: Well, there's another leadership issue here.
03:58 Cindy Moehring: Definitely.
04:00 Dr. Matt Waller: If the CEO is going to parties and flirting with employees, that tells everyone, that's okay to do that.
04:07 Cindy Moehring: Right, right.
04:08 Dr. Matt Waller: Even if he says it's not okay.
04:10 Cindy Moehring: Right, right, 'cause what he's doing then isn't matching what he's saying necessarily, right? And so that's one of those situations that you wanna avoid, but in a party culture like that where you've got flirting going on and maybe some even unwanted physical advances or comments that are being made, that's where it really crosses the line into this sexual harassment issue and I think what McDonald's noticed was and realized, and actually why Mr. Easterbrook lost his job in addition to just violating the policy, it's the larger issue of the culture that was being created, and whether or not it was setting the company up for really a culture that just tolerated sexual harassment through that kind of a party culture. So they decided they needed to go in a different direction and he lost his job over that quite recently.
04:55 Dr. Matt Waller: And of course, there's many other examples of that.
04:58 Cindy Moehring: There are, there are, yeah.
05:00 Dr. Matt Waller: So what are some practical tips here?
05:03 Cindy Moehring: So I'd say there are a number of practical tips, but we'll just break it down to three. One is, if you happen to find yourself in that situation where someone is made and in the workplace, a comment to you of a sexual nature that isn't wanted or makes a physical advance that's unwanted, you really do need to find that trusted source and raise your voice. It's not always black and white, and it could be very gray, and no one's expecting you to have all the facts, but you need to speak up if your gut's telling you that that was an unwanted advance and not something that you wanted. Second thing is, as a leader, you really do need to get to know your people, so I would say if you are, it's always good to check in, but particularly, if you're a new leader of a group of folks, it is worth your time by 10, by a 100 to get to know your people and get to know the ethical culture, and ask...
05:53 Dr. Matt Waller: Do you mean the direct reports or more...
05:55 Cindy Moehring: No, the whole team, yeah, you've gotta go below just your direct report, you've gotta get to know the team so that they get to know you as an individual. Authentically, and so that they know that you want to hear about issues and so as a new leader, it gives you an opportunity to let them know, "I wanna hear about problems that exist." Third tip would be if by chance somebody does come to you and say, there's this situation of sexual harassment, that I think it's an allegation that I think is going on in the area or lo and behold it happened to them and they're disclosing it to you. My advice is to it to a leader is to take care of that just as quickly as possible. You want to take a partner, you want to go to your HR department, you want to go to another trusted source legal, ethics, compliance, whatever it is, but deal with it quickly. That's the practical tip because you may not realise how distracting it is to your team, but the people who are involved in that situation will be completely consumed and distracted by it until it is taken care of, so that they're not gonna be able to spend all their time on the goals that you want them to go accomplish when they've got this distraction over here. So part of your job is to get that distraction, out of the way and deal with it.
06:58 Dr. Matt Waller: In a lot of universities like ours, we have a title nine coordinator, that deals with those kinds of things and the appropriate procedure is for the person who has been harassed to immediately contact the title nine coordinator. Now, sometimes they don't. They'll contact, maybe their department chair or someone else. But then the department chair is supposed to immediately report it. In fact, in our university, we are not permitted to investigate or do anything and until we have disclosed, we've got to disclose. And so, someone can't even tell us something in confidence. If, as soon as we know, a leader like a department chair, Dean, associate Dean, etcetera, etcetera. As soon as you are aware of an allegation, you immediately have to call the title nine coordinator, and then they have a process of investigation, so you don't actually have to do the investigation. But it's really kind of an efficient and effective way of doing it.
08:03 Cindy Moehring: It is, it is, and when I say that the third practical point of dealing with it quickly would be that in business. Leaders need to make sure that they're taking a partner to actually do the investigation for them they don't want to get into that necessarily themselves but you've got to hand it off very quickly and make sure that their business partner is staying on top of getting to the bottom of the issue, because their team won't be able to focus on it So, yes, if an issue comes to your attention like that and you're in business and your company doesn't have a policy of immediate notification to HR or to your ethics and legal and compliance department, somebody to deal with it for you. You need to get it to them very quickly just like what Matt's describing exists here at the university, because you don't want it to be a distraction to your people and you also want to show your folks that you're listening to them and dealing with the issues that are in front of them.
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08:52 Cindy Moehring: Thanks for listening to today's episode of The BIS, the Business Integrity School. You can find us on YouTube, Google SoundCloud, iTunes or wherever you find your podcasts. Be sure to subscribe and rate us, and you can find us by searching the BIS. That's one word, T-H-E-B-I-S. Tune in next time for more practical tips from a pro.
