Join in as Cindy Moehring talks with Wilson Pang about designing responsible AI systems from conception to deployment in a world where technology moves incredibly fast. With an expansive background at CTrip, eBay, and IBM, Pang is now the Chief Technology Officer at Appen, a leading technology platform that powers other companies with AI globally. Wilson is also the co-author of Real World AI, with Alyssa Simpson Rochwerger.
Podcast
Resources From the Episode
- Real World AI
- Alyssa Simpson Rochwerger's podcast episode on TheBIS
- Google AI Principles Blog
- Resourceful AI Resources | Microsoft Blog
- Facebook Five Pillars of Responsible AI
Episode Transcript
Cindy Moehring 0:03
Hi, everyone. I'm Cindy Moehring, the founder and Executive Chair of the Business
Integrity Leadership Initiative at the Sam M. Walton College of Business, and this
is TheBIS, the Business Integrity School podcast. Here we talk about applying ethics,
integrity and courageous leadership in business, education and most importantly, your
life today. I've had nearly 30 years of real world experience as a senior executive.
So if you're looking for practical tips from a business pro who's been there, then
this is the podcast for you. Welcome. Let's get started.
Hi, everybody, and welcome back to another episode of TheBIS, the Business Integrity School. I'm Cindy Moehring, the founder and executive chair, and we have a very special guest with us today. Remember, the topic for this season is responsibly tech savvy. It's all about tech ethics. And we have a CTO with us today, Wilson Pang. Hi, Wilson.
Wilson Pang 1:02
Hey Cindy. Thank you for having me here.
Cindy Moehring 1:04
You bet. Let me tell you a little bit about Wilson, not only is he a CTO, he has quite
an illustrious background. And he is also the co author of our book of the semester,
Real World AI. So Wilson is the Chief Technology Officer at a company known as Appen.
In addition to the co author of our book, Appen is a company that has over 20 years
of experience providing high quality training data, with a leading technology platform
managed services and a global team. They they help other companies power their AI
globally. Wilson himself has over 19 years of experience in software engineering and
data science. Before he joined Appen, he was the Chief Data Officer at CTrip, which
is the second largest online travel agency in the world. He was also a Senior Director
of Engineering at eBay, and a Tech Solution Architect at IBM, lots of really great
experience Wilson, who that I think, probably prepared you for your CTO role that
you have today. So congratulations, and thank you for being here with us.
Wilson Pang 2:09
Thank you, Cindy, I think really appreciate you having me here to just share the difference
perspective on talk to all this future business leaders.
Cindy Moehring 2:17
Yeah, I agree. Why, why don't you, if you don't mind, I love the audience to get to
know the guests a little bit at the beginning. I mean, I can't wait to read the bio,
but they don't really get to know you. So can you tell us a little bit about your
personal journey to where you are today, which is CTO of Appen? And how did you end
up there? How did you know that working in the AI space was something you even wanted
to do?
Wilson Pang 2:41
Sure, sure. That's, of course, I've been in the with the tech industry for actually
more than 20 years now. And the last 12-13 years is all about data and machine learning.
CTO of Appen now, and now Cindy you have already shared the company's really providing
high quality training data to support other company to build AI. So that gives me
the opportunity to really observe all kinds of different AI applications, not just
for one for one company, but many company, many industries.
Cindy Moehring 3:13
Yeah, that was that's a bird's eye view to a really important topic. When you think
about that. I mean, you are you're seeing AI for a bunch of different companies and
all different industries.
Wilson Pang 3:23
Yes, yeah. And then before that when I was with CTrip, basically, I'm doing all kinds
of AI for the travel industry, it's really a deep into why industry and I see how
AI and data to help there. And then back to eBay, my journey at eBay, there's multiple
part like I basically started with an empire for payment, then go to such size, that
time, the first time for me to get exposed to AI and machine learning. AI was not
even a buzzword at that time, that's probably 12-13 years ago, right? Then I also
get the opportunity to lead some horizontal efforts to do the all the data solution
to support the whole company, all different part of the functions like marketing and
finance, like a product, all kinds of areas. I feel when I look at looking back at
my career, I find myself like super lucky for few things, one is really, I I got to
work on the real AI applications, like long time ago, like search sites, right? AI
was not not hardware at that time, but I am lucky enough to be able to go really deep
and see how AI works in one domain. Then I'm also very likely to be able to lead those
horizontal efforts to support applications from different functions within our company.
And then now at Appen, I can see all those, like you said Cindy, the broader view,
how AI is working across different industries. Yeah, those give me a lot for different
perspective there. Say I saw a lot of success and failure like, either through my
firsthand experience, or through just observing how others are doing AI.
Cindy Moehring 3:24
Yeah.
Wilson Pang 3:26
Gave me a very deep vertical view of how AI works, as well as broader view how AI
is used in different places. I think those are super helpful for my career.
Cindy Moehring 5:17
Yeah, I would bet. So you are an engineer and data scientist. And I just have to ask
you, just to start out, since we're talking about responsible tech and tech ethics,
is it natural, do you think for engineers and data scientists to think holistically
about AI in this way? Like, think about the ethics side of it, or is that something
that's kind of a learned skill, like learning to ride a bike?
Wilson Pang 5:51
Yeah, that's great question, Cindy, is actually a very all natural for data scientists
to think holistically. Here's why. If you look at how our data scientists are trained
at college, right, basically, they learn the math behind the AI model, they learn
how to change a parameter of the model, how to really make the model work, all those
technologies, and the theory behind it AI.
Cindy Moehring 6:14
Got it.
Wilson Pang 6:14
No one was really talking about ethics at that time. And then out of college, the
motor industry started working in the real a real world AI problems, right? They were
the peers, they spent a lot of time on data, they cared now, more than just less precision,
recall all the theory metrics, but what's the user conversion rates? What's the click
through rate for s? What's the user engagement? They're trying to use AI to solve
a real business problem, drive business growth. That's the whole focus. Only the last
few years have more and more people start to realize that to say, what's the potential
damage AI can bring? If do not do this, Like, ethical way? So how to bring all those
different. But this like, even now, it's still a pretty recent topic how to get it
right, right.
Cindy Moehring 7:07
I think you're right.
Wilson Pang 7:09
Yeah. How to really like imagine the AI ethics, how to bring a different perspective
into the AI team, how to get the data, right, to remove all the bias, how to treat
the folks who are having the AI unfairly, how to protect the user privacy, like, those
are all the phases we need to consider. Um, but we are still at the earliest database.
So the fact is that more and more people care about AI ethics. And we are all working
together to solve the problem. Cindy, I like your program is just another great example.
Right? I'm super excited to see you bring all this tech ethics and those perspective
to our future business leaders.
Cindy Moehring 7:48
Yeah, yeah. Well, because, as I've discovered, and what came out in the book, Real
World AI, which is written by, so interestingly, you as an engineer, and then a non
technical person, Alyssa, who's a product manager, but bringing those two perspectives
together to write what I would call a plain English guide, for really anyone, whether
they're a data scientist and software engineer, or a product manager, or you know,
lo and behold, in marketing, everybody has something to learn, I think from the the
approach that you took in that book. So So let me ask you, how do you think is the
best way for data scientists and engineers in particular, to hone their skills in
this area? Does it come through practice? Or is it more training that needs to be
done?
Wilson Pang 8:40
I think the number one thing there is really to raise awareness, like your program
is happening, or a book. There's a lot of effort is helped you. So AI today is penetrating
to almost all the industries, and it's impacting almost every piece of our life in
society, right? You can, it's really hard for me to think of any area, there's no
AI. So basically, a lot of human decisions now replaced by the AI decisions. If the
ethic is not an important factor to consider there, the damage can be huge. Once the
awareness is there, I think the data scientists or the engineers, they can be equipped
with all those different, like methodologies and tools for them to like, measure the
AI ethics for to help them to build AI like responsible AI, like here, correct way.
And of course, I think you hit the very important point. Training is just probably
like one small part, the how to practice in their day to day life, again and again.
Cindy Moehring 9:42
Yeah, again, and you're right. I mean because it changes all the time, and there's
new issues, new questions that need to be asked. And, you know, it would seem to me
that sometimes unfortunately, we all do learn from the mistakes that others make.
And I think particularly in the tech field, there's this, you know, desire to move
quickly, so you can stay ahead of the competition a bit, which may have caused some
of these deeper questions about, not can we, but should we, to not be brought to the
to the forefront quite as much. What what do you think, were some of those like, what
are some of the main risk areas for the deployment of that AI? Where maybe we did
have to learn through some bad examples. What comes to mind for you?
Wilson Pang 10:29
Oh, there's quite a few risk areas of error that everyone should be aware Um, the
first one is really the AI potentially using user's private data. For example, facial
recognition, right? This is a very classical AI example there to train a facial recognition,
AI model how to use users like picture data. But when you train the model, do you
have the right of those data? Do you have the user's consent? Can you really use this
data those held to be altered before you can deploy a facial recognition model. So
the first category, really AI model types use their private data. Second category
is really AI and those highly regulated domains. There's different laws from different
country, for example, in US, education, public accommodation, like hotels, housing,
employment, those are the areas protected by the law, you you cannot make, have any
discriminations there against gender, age, religion, etc, right. So those are protected
human rights. And now you can see there's a lot of new AI models making those decisions
in those domain. And we have to make sure those AI models don't have those discriminations
there. So that's the second category. Last but not least, there's also a lot of AI
builders on controller data. Probably you will have heard of, there's a lot for the
called a big language model, like a GPT-3 is super powerful. You can use the model
to write an article, you can tell it's from AI or from people, you can use the model
to find answers for you from internet, you can even use the model to write a program
to build a website for you, super powerful. How those kind of model is trained, they
use almost all those texts from internet, they can access to train the model. Meanwhile,
you can imagine all the texts from internet, there's a lot of bias, like from those
texts too, right.
Cindy Moehring 10:34
Just, right, written by humans. And we all have an implicit bias that well, yeah.
Wilson Pang 12:36
Yeah. And those are learning into the model. So you have to be aware with those own
cultural data, there's a bias how you can remove those. So be aware of those, like
putting your AI bias and put some measurements in those areas is super important.
Cindy Moehring 12:53
Yeah, it is. So let's, let's let's now get down to brass tacks, if you will get really
get really practical now that we've identified some of those risk areas. And I'm just
going to ask you, where do you think the responsible AI journey should begin for a
company? Like it, Obviously, it begins with design, but let's just talk about that
for a minute. Like, what should the design phase really look like? And who should
be part of the team and all of that, like, how does the company get started?
Wilson Pang 13:24
Yeah, that's, that's a great question. I think a lot of people have a wrong impression,
like AI team probably only consists of data scientist.
Cindy Moehring 13:31
Yeah, I know.
Wilson Pang 13:33
Like PhD, like they have different knowledge around machine learning. But that's not
true. In reality, I think the team need to help people from different perspective,
I normally you need a people who really understand the business problem, the AI is
only useful way to solve a problem there, right? It can be a product manager, it can
be an SME in an areas. And then you need to, like come to the data scientists who
can model the business problem into AI problems. And then you need like data engineers
to help you to process data, other software engineer to help you to deploy the model
to production and build a service on top of that. And if the all those people, especially
the product manager, SME, data scientists, they should really keep AI ethics in mind,
otherwise, that will cause a problem, right. And meanwhile, for the risk area we discussed
earlier, if those areas are involved when you build the AI model, well, normally,
I think, the legal team is also part of the discussion in the design phase.
Cindy Moehring 14:39
Should be, right, and probably HR if you're talking about any of those kinds of risk
areas with personal information about employees. So so we talked about the diversity
of the team, in terms of different perspectives. I think obviously also just diversity
in terms of the individuals around the table would also be important, but what are
the kinds of questions specifically that you think should be asked in the design phase
by the team to make sure that responsible and ethical AI is top of mind?
Wilson Pang 15:13
Cindy, I really like the way that you are thinking here. Also, I write a question
is always the first super important step to get the result you want, right? Here are
some questions, I always ask where we touch any AI product. Who are the potential
users of this AI product? Does the AI product perform the same way against different
group of the users? Do we have a good way to measure not only performance, but also
like fairness, right? And also, like for certain errors, do you have a lesson if it
doesn't perform as expected? Do you have a safe net? Or like a backup plan? Can you
kill the idea? Or can you use a different approach? So I think those are the key question
to ask in the design phase.
Cindy Moehring 16:04
Okay. All right. So it sounds like a lot of effort needs to be put into design. I'm
not sure all companies have always spent enough time there. Because there's this rush
as we all loaded to get things done quickly. But if you ask the right questions at
the beginning in the right way, hopefully you can get it right in design. And then
after design, I think would come, what modeling like so you get a prototype essentially
put together? But what what happens in that phase? We know it requires data. And we
know that the data that gets fed into the model, we need to again, consider ethics.
But we've already talked about the fact that we all have implicit bias, right? So
and you mentioned the bias is going to be in the data itself, right? If you've got
an AI looking for. So it just seems like this conundrum that you can't resolve how
do you build a model? And ask the right questions to ensure that the model that you're
building isn't biased, or at least isn't exacerbating bad biases? Maybe just how do
you make it better?
Wilson Pang 17:11
Mm hmm. Um, I think absolutely right, accurate data, gather data right is the most
important step due to any real world AI models. We all know like garbage in garbage
out. Right? And also, if the Data Wise, the model has wise, exactly, yeah, there's
a two major categories of questions to ask when it comes to data. The first group
is really about the data itself. Do you have the right data? Do you have the fair
representativeness of different classes of the data? Let me give you a real example
to bring this to life. Yeah, I want to build a very like simple AI model to classify
the tweets. Is this tweet a positive tweett or a negative tweett? Right? Simple model,
I get 1000 tweets as my training data, then I look at the data, 900 are for male,
100 are for female. Clearly, you don't have enough to represent, representative for
female tweets, right, you need to fix that, let's fix that. Now I have 500 for male
500 for female, there. Then, I get people to label those tweetss positive or negative.
For those 500 for a male, I say like 400 are positive, 100 are negative, clearly,
like the negative representative is not enough. It's imbalanced. Like those are the
examples like, you can see the data is wrong and the wrong data to create problem
for your model. And in the interest of logic, bias or fairness, probably smaller.
So back to the first group where you have to get the data, right, you need to look
at the class imbalance, the label imbalance and all those stuff there. That's important.
The second group is really about how you, you gather data, how you use data, not the
data itself, but how you collect the data, how you use the data, you need to ask,
like how the data was collected? Do I have the consent from the users who give you
the data? Does it hurt you the privacy? And also if you're getting people, if you
look at the AI ecosystem, it's not just data scientists, parent vendors, right? We
also have a group people who are having to label in the data collecting the data.
Those are the people normally you don't get not get like super high pay as data scientist.
How can we make sure those people are also paid fairly? How can we make sure we are
also cared those people's abilities? So that's the second group. Basically, how you,
the way you collect data, the way you use data, there's a lot as to continue to make
the ethical tool.
Cindy Moehring 19:44
Okay. Okay. So, one of the things you mentioned earlier was the measurement. And I
would, I would imagine that once you design it and you model it, you then want to
do some measurement of your prototype, your model before you just put it into production.
And so that's probably comes out in the monitoring of it, I would imagine of the model,
but how do you measure it? How do you actually just figure out if you are measuring
not just performance? But how do you measure the the ethical aspect of an AI model?
Wilson Pang 20:23
Yeah, I think this is the essential part of people to understand to make responsible
AI. Because to me, there's no such thing as ethical metrics. The ethical metrics is
accurate the performance metrics by different dimension.
Cindy Moehring 20:40
That's interesting.
Wilson Pang 20:42
Yeah, why don't see that. Give you an example, let's say a voice recognition AI model,
how the model is measured. There's typical metrics called word error rate, essentially,
it is, as it how many words, are recognized not correctly, compared with the whole
population. I speak one sentence, that's 10 word, the engine recognize two wrong,
then the word error rate is 20%. That's a performance metrics, right. But how to measure
the ethical part for voice recognition engine, you probably want to measure that whatever
it against different age group, different people with accent, different people with
standards, etc. There was a report published, I forgot maybe a year ago, talking about
all those major voice recognition engines. So the their word error rate is very low
for like a normal English, or let's say, for maybe, like a you, your word error rates
from the voice recognition engine is pretty low. But for people with accents, their
word error rate is pretty high. I think that's how you really using the performance
metrics for measured and against different dimension, different group people. That's
the way you can detect the potential bias or issues.
Cindy Moehring 22:01
Oh, wow. So you really do have to think differently than just what's the math behind
the model that we want to, you know, build, you have to like, then look at the output,
and then consider all these other questions, hopefully, before you put it into production.
So that sounds like a whole lot of cross functional teamwork to me going back to the
design phase, and we talked about, you know, the team that needed to be put together.
And I and I would imagine, based on the first question I asked you about, is it natural
for engineers and data scientists to think this way? And the answer being, well, no,
it really isn't. I would imagine that on this team, you've probably in your experience,
had to deal with some call them "non adopters", people who just don't understand,
aren't aware, or maybe don't really care about responsible and ethical AI. So if you
are faced with a team member like that, what, what's your advice to others about how
to bring them on board and get them to come along or deal with that situation?
Wilson Pang 23:04
Yeah, Cindy actually, its my personal experiences, those cases are really rare. Most
of the AI bias are introduced by like, all intentionally, once people, know there's
a potential bias, the damage they can bring by not consider the AI ethical part, they
will like, really invest and make it right. That's mostly the case. I think the case
really to increase the awareness, and also give people the tools how to measure.
Cindy Moehring 23:37
Got it, got it. And if you are leading a team like that, and you kind of sense that
maybe somebody just wasn't really getting it, maybe it's just a matter of making sure
that you or another team member is raising the right question. So again, the person
can learn more by doing and see that asking these kinds of questions is is a normal
part of the process. And something that kind of has to be done before you can roll
it out. To your point probably wasn't happening 10 years ago, right. But, but then
we had some very, you know, famous mistakes, whether it was you know, the Amazon hiring
tool that got it wrong, or the facial recognition, or you know, and then people sort
of stepped back and thought about it a little bit. So let's talk about deployment.
We've talked about, you know, design and and then you have to build your model. But
at some point, you do have to get to deployment. And usually that's pretty quick in
today's day and age. Are you done really after you design it and put it into deployment?
Or is there more that that has to be done after you deploy it and what I'm thinking
about here in particular, I'll just give you an example. Like the Apple Pay card that
got designed, and arguably, it was giving men more credit than it was to women, even
though their backgrounds could be you know, 100% the same and equal. And from what
I understand, unfortunately, when some of the calls started coming in to the call
center Like, they weren't prepared for those customer service questions. And their
answer was, well I don't, you know, that's that's the model we had built. I mean,
the AI decided it. So how important is explainability and transparency, in this process,
once you roll it out?
Wilson Pang 25:21
I, it really depends on the use case. A lot of times AI works like a black box, right?
It works, but you don't know how it works. It's okay, if certain use cases, let's
say you build an AI model to predict advertisement, the click through rates. Price,
okay, right. So as people click More, you don't really care how the model works. But
if you build a model, let's say if you build a model to help doctors to diagnose this
disease, or maybe have the back to your, your example, have people to approve a credit
card application or not. You have to be able to explain how the AI works, why someone
gets approved, why someone not get approved, right? Otherwise, like people will lose
trust there. And also, I could bring back a good example of how I learned this is
really a hard way, that's probably 12 or 13 years ago, I was always eBay leading a
small search science team. So we build a lot of machine learning model to have to
rank the product help people find the product they want. We build the product view,
the model, and the user conversion increase, we were super happy. But then we get
a phone call from like our customer success team. A lot of sellers, asking them, why
my partner used to rank within the top 10 on the search results page. Now, second
page, third page, the way I look at that is hard problem. We didn't know we know it
works. We didn't know why. Then there's a few months of effort to build a tool to
explain how the model works to show people how like the ranking factors. Maybe you
need to make the title right, the picture might not be blurry, like all those kinds
of deciding factors, like what we show those, then that helps the customer success
team to have the sellers to make better listing. And also I got some the gray hair
set and time.
Cindy Moehring 27:32
Yeah, but but it was also, going through that that exercise I would imagine also helped
to show that it wasn't biased decision making, it was actually very valid factors
like with a blurry picture, or you didn't have a good description. So you know, giving
that kind of information when you're able to explain it and be transparent. Probably
helped a lot of sellers really gain their trust back in eBay. But if your answer just
simply would have been, "I don't know." If you wouldn't have gone to you know, go
figure it out so you could explain it to them, I think that would have exacerbated
what a lot of people feel about AI still today, which is distrust, right? And how
do you think transparency helped in that situation? So let's just stay with the example
that you provided, once you were able to be transparent and explain it to the sellers,
how did that have that help? Did it, Did it turn the tide? Did it cause them to have
trust to get an eBay and continue to work with the company?
Wilson Pang 28:33
No, really, actually, it's, it's on the other side. Basically, once you have that
transparency, you can not only help people to build a trust or AI model, but also
to really encourage the right of the hearers back to the eBay example, right? I think
the seller now they know they need to have high quality pictures, they know that they
know they need to make sure the description of the like the product title needs to
be accurate. They also know like their shaping performance matters. And also if there's
any, like a buyer dispute with them, so that will also cost their item rank lower
than other people then actually in turn help them to inquire a lot of good behaviors.
They not only trust the AI model, but also improve the picture like make better service,
ship faster, which actually going back to give the buyer a much better experience.
Yeah, this is this kind of transparency helps not only the trust but many other things.
Cindy Moehring 29:34
Yeah, yeah, I think you're probably right. Okay, so this is going to lead us to a
really hard question here. How do you square everything we just talked about which
takes time and got to work cross functionally and you know, anytime you have a group
of people can slow things down some would say, How do you square all of the design
and the and the deployment of models with this need to create minimally viable products
and the need for speed, some would call it get that technology out fast. Those two
seem to be kind of incongruent ideas. So how do you square all of that?
Wilson Pang 30:13
I personally, I'm a strong believer of MEP concept there, you always shaping a minimum
viable product to the market quickly. I think that's the only way you can collect
real user feedback. Instead of a lot of people spend a lot of time just thinking what
a user might like. In reality, the user reaction can be very different from what else
you think there. But you're right, then also bring a AI fairness problem, if you just
ship the product move fast without considering the ethical part.
Cindy Moehring 30:46
Yeah.
Wilson Pang 30:47
If people read them our book, right in the beginning of the Real World AI book there,
we share an example of IBM Watson, computer vision, API development example there,
the team moves really fast. They build the model, they ship them out. And then we,
even without understanding, like the training data, so what are the tags? What are
the different classes for those images there? They create a problem. Like for a picture
like a VR chair, wheelchair, you use a pretty bad tags, flags for the VR chair cause
a big PR problem. That's a example like you do ship product fast, but without considering
the AI part, AI ethic part, right? Because of the problem there. Back to the MEP,
and also how to square get this right. To me, I think the case the definition for
liable back to the performance fight, right, like, measure the performance, but also
should we consider AI biased? You know why? By definition? The answer to this, Yes.
Especially when you build AI in this high risk area we discussed earlier. Please move
fast, and meanwhile consider AI bias as part of the problem.
Cindy Moehring 32:02
That makes a ton of sense. So back to measuring performance at a minimally viable
level, right back to measuring it on different dimensions. It it all, all you have
to do is change your mindset about what is considered viable, and kind of open your
mind to viable does it mean just getting over the, you know, the the click through
rate or the true performance methods, metrics, but you think about performance metrics
and viability for those differently. Right.
Wilson Pang 32:33
Yeah,
Cindy Moehring 32:33
And more holistically, that's a really good way to think about it and what isn't an
either or, it actually is all together and is just one, I love it. Okay, well, Wilson,
I got to ask you, I know you're a CTO and you are steeped in this area. But you must
have some places you go to for inspiration, to learn more, to continue to keep your
skills relevant. And I love to leave the audience with recommendations. So where do
you go? Or what would you recommend to the audience, if they want to deepen their
knowledge of this area more beyond your book? Would it be, is there a good podcast
series? Is there a good documentary you could recommend? Another book? Anything. What
do you, what do you what, where do you go for inspiration on this?
Wilson Pang 33:19
Yeah, Cindy, I think AI ethic is a big topic, right? We probably can continue this
type of discussion for another day on this topic. Yeah. If the audience want to learn
more about this topic, and the recent developments in this field, there are a few
tech blogs are highly recommended. So these are all from the speaker players. So Google
published their AI principles. If you search Google AI Principles, you can find their
blog, there's a lot of deep consideration how to make AI right. In all the different
perspectives there. Similar things from the Microsoft AI blog, if you search, Resourceful
AI Microsoft, you can find a blog. And the last part, I really like a lot, it's really
the AI blog from Facebook. So they have their five pillars, five pillars of responsible
AI. They not only give you like, why is this important, how to measure this, they
even give you some tools or some open source software to help you really make it real
in your project. Those are the places I think if people are interested, they can learn
a ton from those three blogs.
Cindy Moehring 34:34
Those are great. Additionally, they're obviously going to be very practical. They
come from the business world, they come from some other big tech companies that are
trying to iterate and get better themselves. So those are, those are really great
recommendations. Wilson, thank you. You've been very very gracious with your time
and with your wisdom and everything you've been able to share with us authentically
about your own journey and even some mistakes along the way that you were able to
and others to learn from. So I can't thank you enough for spending this time with
us. I love the book Real World AI, it is a fabulous practical read on how companies
can implement it effectively. So thank you for writing the book. And thank you for
being the guest here today.
Wilson Pang 35:18
Thank you, Cindy. It's really great to be here. And thank you for your awesome program
to get more business leaders to understand the AI ethic part.
Cindy Moehring 35:25
Yeah, you're welcome. We're on this journey together. All right. Thank you.
Wilson Pang 35:31
Thank you, Cindy. Bye.
Cindy Moehring 35:37
Thanks for listening to today's episode of TheBIS the Business Integrity School. You
can find us on YouTube, Google, SoundCloud, iTunes or wherever you find your podcasts.
Be sure to subscribe and rate us and you can find us by searching TheBIS. That's one
word, T H E B I S, which stands for the Business Integrity School. Tune in next time
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