On this new episode of the BIS podcast, Cindy Moehring speaks with Page Motes, Head of Global Sustainability at Dell Technologies. Listen to their conversation as Page describes her role in creating a sustainable strategic vision, operationalizing ESG goals, and decision-driven data that is changing business around the globe.
Podcast
Resources From the Episode
- Dell
- Closed-loop plastic program at Dell
- Fordham University spotlight on ESG
- Larry Fink’s 2021 letter to CEOs
- Business Roundtable statement
Episode Transcript
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0:00:16.0 Cindy Moehring: Hi everybody. And welcome back to another episode of The BIS, the Business Integrity School. And today, I've got a very special guest with me, Page Motes from Dell. Hi Page.
0:00:25.0 Page Motes: Hey, Cindy. Great to be with you today.
0:00:26.8 Cindy Moehring: It's good to see you again. Let me tell you all a little bit about Page, and then we will jump into all things ESG, which as we know is the topic for the season four of the video podcast. So Page leads corporate sustainability at Dell Technology, where she oversees Dell strategic vision angles as well as the stakeholder engagement. And in this role, she and her team work with very deep collaboration with a number of internal business groups, and we're gonna hear more about that in just a minute. And the programmes that she leads span across themes like advancing the circular economy, climate change, and really deep engagement in the supply chain. Now, prior to taking on this role, Page had a very long and very exciting career as the leader in the Global Ethics And Compliance Office, where she oversaw and managed Dell's ethic strategy and proactive culture of integrity initiatives go to conduct and all things that go along with ethics and compliance. Both of those roles, and this is the real interesting part, are complemented by over 15 years in sales and consulting, and I think that's just an amazing background to have for the work you're doing now, Page. So with that, let's jump into the questions. And welcome to this podcast, we are so happy to have you here with us. Why don't you just start by telling our audience how in the world you got from sales into the world of ethics and compliance in ESG?
0:01:58.1 Page Motes: Absolutely happy to. So I had a long career in sales, nothing specific to the ESG space for quite some time. In fact, I'm dating myself, but I started in Dell in the early '90s, even before it was headquartered in Round Rock, Texas, it was a taller building in Austin. So I grew up early days in Dell, but after I left Dell in '96, I worked in a variety of different sales roles, but at a certain point in my career I landed at a firm in both the sales and consulting capacity that advised chief Ethics and Compliance Officers, that those who are the officers within the Ethics and Compliance space.
0:02:41.5 Cindy Moehring: Right.
0:02:42.6 Page Motes: Being so excited about that work, and it happened right as the fall of Enron occurred, and all of these organisations where culture and accountability and ethics and compliance became not just a buzz word, it became an incredibly deep part of what businesses were focused on, and then I was hooked, right?
0:03:06.1 Cindy Moehring: Got it.
0:03:06.2 Page Motes: I spent about a decade logic that back I spent a number of years with that firm, and then I came to do in-house work at Dell in 2009. And really deeply engaging across the company and seeing what it's like for a big organisation with the global scope and scale to try to marry profit and purpose, and really ensure that we're doing business with integrity, it allowed me to touch a lot of different places within the company where ethics and compliance touched and sustainability happened to be in which that occurred. So now I'm in the sustainability space, but it became just a nice little half magic, half planning, somehow that happens to all of us, and you end up where you are, but that's my job.
0:03:57.6 Cindy Moehring: It does, and I just think it's really great to share people's journeys because students need to understand that careers aren't always just linear, they sometimes go like this, back and forth, and it's more like a lattice than it is a straight line. And I just think that background in sales and consulting and that kind of business practical sense has probably really helped you in both the ethics and compliance role as well as on the ESG role.
0:04:22.8 Page Motes: It has, and I would say that one of the transferable skills that that kind of role gives you is the ability to influence without even formal authority. When you think about in the ethics compliance spaces, for example, how many people do you have to touch? How many people you have to bring along in a vision? And you're not necessarily given any formal authority or a stick to bring them along.
0:04:42.8 Cindy Moehring: That's right.
0:04:44.9 Page Motes: And so I think that that transferable skill from sales has allowed me to implement some of that capacity within ethics and compliance, and now sustainability, and then thinking about broader ESG capability.
0:04:56.7 Cindy Moehring: That's great. So speaking of ESG and all things ESG, which we're focusing on this season, it used to be more of a side show a bit, if you will, for investors [chuckle] at least, but now it's really... I sense just kind of front and centre and it's something that all companies are thinking about, but what does all things ESG really mean to Dell? And is it kind of central at Dell the way I sense it is, and many other companies these days?
0:05:29.9 Page Motes: Yeah, I would say that, especially over the past year to 18 months, we've seen it become even more central. So you're right, I think that just like with many other organisations there was a time and a place where ESG was just that stuff we put out about all the other work, you're seeing much more this pivot to how is ESG helping to define some of the strategic work that we're doing, how do we want to engage with the board, how do we want to provide resources and time and energy beyond just even the goals that we set for a company, but also just the strategic work that we do. So ESG really has become much more of a driver now than just an output of other things.
0:06:16.9 Cindy Moehring: Do you... And so you mentioned it was maybe a year, 18 months ago that it really picked up some prominence. Do you think that you can identify a particular tipping point or what really caused that central?
0:06:30.4 Page Motes: I think that's... First of all, we've seen... And keep in mind, we're even a company that is still majority owned by Michael Dell and Silver Lake. So we are not... We are not some... Like some other companies where we are fully nothing but investors. We don't have as broad and deep of an investor portfolio as some other companies, but I will tell you those investors that invest in the company are incredibly passionate, active, engaged, and so we've seen an increasing level of engagement and not just, "Tell us about your goals," or "Tell us about what you're doing," but, "What is your path to getting there?" A lot more level of depth and detail over the past 18 months, but the biggest pivot I think is that we've seen our customers ask more and more.
0:07:21.9 Cindy Moehring: Really?
0:07:22.4 Page Motes: So it's no longer just an investor-oriented conversation, it is a customer conversation. Customers are more and more asking for copies of our climate disclosures through CDP. Customers more and more are wanting to have deep, deep-dive conversations with me and some of my peers across the ESG pillars. So I think that pivot really catches leadership attention, not just traditional stakeholders and players. It's this other really important also audience, customers, channel partners, etcetera because they themselves are thinking about these topics that they wanna know that we've got our act together too and are aligned in the direction that we're headed.
0:08:05.9 Cindy Moehring: Yeah.
0:08:06.2 Page Motes: That's the part of the pivot.
0:08:08.4 Cindy Moehring: Ain't that interesting to see all the different stakeholder groups come to the table and customers obviously, being one of the groups that now wanna be more informed.
0:08:18.5 Page Motes: Yeah.
0:08:19.5 Cindy Moehring: So let me ask you a question. So Dell as a technology company is gonna be very different I think on the ESG, how they think about it, right? And determine what's material for the company than for say, a consumer products company or a... Well, to some extent, Dell is a consumer products company because you make the computers, but they're more of a tech company than let's say, Clorox or Kimberly Clark, that they make products that are disposable and you're re-buying them all the time and really affects the economy or even like a financial services company, like a bank or something, they're gonna have very different thoughts about ESG and materiality. So how does Dell think about materiality when it comes to ESG and what to focus on?
0:09:09.8 Page Motes: Yeah, that became one of the very first things that we started to contemplate a year or so ago. As we really started to make this pivot, there's two things that we knew we had to do. One, we had to really ensure that all the right players of the company that need to be involved in this materiality conversation were combined into a governance body, so we can all be speaking the same language, the same ESG language as at work. The second piece was, so what are the most important things we need to ... materiality.
0:09:45.7 Cindy Moehring: So we looked at a refresh and Dell has been doing materiality and for lack of... Not necessarily ESG as an acronym, but all the stuff that encompasses ESG for quite some time. Every few years we would do an updated materiality, but we did a very focused ESG materiality refresh, and then that particular group got together and said, "Okay, is the output... Is there anything about this output that we, as a collective, believe doesn't quite hit the mark? Or is there something missing?" So when we did our materiality refresh like new organisations, we engaged all the different stakeholder groups, some with a pretty level of depth to be able to say, "What do you think is most material?"
0:10:33.7 Page Motes: Will the impact be, "How is this playing into what Dell is today as a company where we're going," and we leveraged all of that information and then that body sat down and really went through it with a fine-tooth comb, and in fact, we just recently launched our latest ESG report on our Dell Technologies Progress Made Real site, but we show our materiality updated grid and in that grid what we really try to do is say, "Okay, materiality is a little bit different than just a risk assessment that is done inside the company and business reports," but there were some things that we thought stakeholders may not understand, some stakeholders of that particular item really is not something that Dell has a big hand in, so we may change that slightly, but this particular item, they put a little too low and we think it should be even higher. So what we ended up with is I think a nice mix across ES and G, but that really is now what we're leveraging to ensure that we're building out operational processes that give all the right accountability and capability for those topics, making sure that we've got structure to turn the proper oversight, etcetera, of all of them, but yeah, we did materiality because that's how we're going to keep ourselves focused.
0:12:00.8 Cindy Moehring: Oh. So in terms of speaking about focus, glad you went there. So there is a... There are these open-loop materials and closed-loop materials that is talked about in the Dell ESG report, but can you just explain that a little bit for the audience and how both types of materials are being used in your products?
0:12:23.7 Page Motes: Absolutely. And you know, when you think about the materiality that I just talked about, obvious things like climate, human rights, data privacy, those types of things are obviously very material, but also a big place where Dell plays for a technology company is in this sustainable consumption and circularity space, right? And so these concepts of closed-loop and open-loop for us deeply are embedded in the sustainability principles of circular economy. So that's a place that Dell feels a great deal of responsibility to play. We also have a history of playing there pretty well, but we know we, like many other companies, we've gotta do more because...
0:13:04.8 Page Motes: Waste, or waste in general, is just a growing problem in this world, and we've gotta do a lot. So in closed loops banks, what that really means in the Dell context is that we take back electronics that are end of use from that customer. It does not mean it's the end of its life, it might be another use by another customer, etcetera, but when we have a huge take back programme, we've had it in place since 1996. When we take products back, it could even be a competitive product... We've, since 2014, have what we call a closed loop plastics programme, where we literally take material from returned products and we take that plastic and we're able to put it back into the supply chain to make brand new products of ours for future generations of electronics. We've used that expertise and that knowledge to now have other closed loop programmes around rare earth magnets from drives, and now aluminum also sourced out of drives that were returned.
0:14:11.4 Cindy Moehring: Wow.
0:14:11.5 Page Motes: But we keep trying to experiment with scale and expand this closed loop concept, because the more you can get to closed loop, A, you are re-using material over and over again, and therefore not sourcing virgin material...
0:14:29.0 Cindy Moehring: Yeah.
0:14:29.9 Page Motes: It also is a de-carbonised material, so the carbon footprint of that product goes down... Good.
0:14:35.3 Cindy Moehring: Great.
0:14:36.1 Page Motes: And you also save money, so you know what the source is coming from, etcetera. So, all of those things are good things. Open loop is a little different. That is instead of our... It's kind of a trash treasure concept. Our, and it's not trash, I know that's...
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0:14:57.3 Page Motes: Our trash becoming new treasure, it's someone else's trash becoming... I should have said waste, but you get my...
0:15:05.6 Cindy Moehring: I get it.
0:15:06.0 Page Motes: A great example of open loop that we have is that the aerospace industry has to use carbon fiber to make their planes lighter and stronger. There's scrap carbon fiber we've actually contracted with a group to help us grab their scrap, we leverage that scrap, we apply special technology to it to make it recyclable, and we put it in our laptops, display backs, etcetera, to make our products lighter and stronger. So, we have several examples of open loop. One of them is a funny...
0:15:38.2 Page Motes: People love it, it's a polymer that is sourced from the... Or it's a resin that's sourced from the polymer that sits between the two panes of glass in the car windshield. So at the end of life of the car, and they're sitting in the junk yard, we work with a third party to extract that polymer, and it coats our eco-friendly Dell backpacks.
0:15:58.7 Cindy Moehring: Wow!
0:16:00.2 Page Motes: So, maybe an '85 Camaro. That was to what...
0:16:02.6 Cindy Moehring: Exactly.
0:16:03.3 Page Motes: It might be on a backpack now. So that's another example.
0:16:08.0 Cindy Moehring: That is really awesome. That is... Someone's trash, waste, is another company's treasure. That's really, really cool and it's a great way, I think, to really put some specificity around what this circular economy means. People say that word, but being able to have real-life examples, I think, is really valuable. So that's just great. That's great.
0:16:30.8 Page Motes: Yeah. And it's a lot of innovation, a lot of locking arms with other people, so that's... We're not the only ones doing that kind of work, but we're really proud to be involved in that kind of work.
0:16:40.5 Cindy Moehring: That's really... That's so important. So okay, now I'm gonna turn to a question that I think is, it's particularly difficult sometimes to do with inside companies, and that's taking these ESG goals and actually, I would call it operationalising them. So, putting something measurable behind it and deciding, "How are we gonna take this goal and translate it into something that is achievable and that people are gonna be accountable for it, and that you're gonna be able to improve on it over time?" Right? So can you give some examples of how Dell has done that, and the collaborations that you've had to build behind the scenes to make it happen?
0:17:23.1 Page Motes: Yeah, definitely. I think you're right, that is the number one struggle. Coming up with a really great aspirational goal usually will go on easier than operationalising it to make sure you're literally hitting the targets and making progress. So one of the things that... And many companies have a process like this, we just call it offer life cycle management or offer life cycle programme... I forget the OLP, the P stands for... I'm gonna get killed for that, but it is a process flow by which, for example, at Dell, we leverage and lead development of our products. We've taken that same concept which has phase-gaming and put government structures and some we're still putting in, but mostly, especially in the sustainability space, it fits really nicely because a lot of the goals that we have do touch our products, our solutions, we just talked about closed loop as an example. So, what we've attempted to do is not only set up government structures, so bodies that oversee, yes, these are the right goals. Yes, we have targets in place. Yes, we've got reviews of resources and progress, etcetera, but also we are identifying through this life cycle process the ability for us to have phase date reviews. So when there's a new initiative that's going to advance one of the goals, it's in concept phase, maybe initially, to just scope is that indeed directionally where we need to go? And then it moves to design phase, perhaps.
0:19:05.3 Page Motes: Where it is like, "What would it take to accomplish this?" Then it moves to maybe planning phase, "Let's work on a project plan, all the right milestones, etcetera. Let's get buy-in of how we're gonna launch that, who's gonna be in charge, who the team's going to be, etcetera." And then you can imagine then it becomes maybe piloting, maybe implementing, maybe scaling. I'm just giving an example. And different companies, different groups in the company have their own flavour of this kind of thing, but it's not outside of the norm of what a lot of companies have to think through.
0:19:37.0 Cindy Moehring: Yeah, and I think what's new there is lots of companies have those kinds of processes that have certainly been applied for many other reasons, right, like getting a new product out to market. Making sure your internal controls for financial reporting are taped and tied, but applying that to ESG goals is a bit new and a bit different, and I think it does cause people to think differently about how to take something that's aspirational and break it down into brass tacks, and it may mean just simply looking at what you've been doing, but looking at it in a completely different way, like, "Oh, I didn't ever realise that I needed to actually think about how much upstream carbon emissions there were before this... It got to me at this point." And so it's a different way of thinking.
0:20:27.0 Page Motes: Yeah, and I think one of the reasons why we felt that was important and again, some of the initiatives are still being put into the OLP phases, but that's a journey, and so we're pivoting into that space but I would say what it allows you to do is be much more thoughtful about how you're going to achieve those initiatives.
0:20:46.4 Cindy Moehring: And what you need. What you need, like the data that you need. And so let's talk about that for a second. How does Dell go about getting the data that it actually needs to figure out what you're gonna measure against? Where is the starting line? So that we know when we do set the goal and we do the project plan, we have the baseline that we're measuring against, because aren't a lot of companies still struggling really to even get a good baseline and get the right data? That's hard.
0:21:19.2 Page Motes: I agree, and I think you hit on probably one of the most important topics in the ESG space. Data. And it's not just the data you're reporting outside, the disclosure data. Certainly important, but if the data you're starting from isn't good data or not the right baseline or what have you, then what you're reporting outside is suspect. So you are right, a big, big part of what we do and many companies do is really understand what's true about where you're starting from, even if it's not a good place. It's okay. It's true. So in the spirit of transparency, let's speak the truth, even if the numbers are low, because you have to know where you're coming from to know where you're going to. And I would say the other piece about data is that like other companies, Dell has had its struggles with data being siloed. So just think of when we're having a net zero emission spill. The scope one and two data may come from this part of the business and the scope three, category one supply chain data comes from this part of the business, and then now you've got transport logistics over here and travel over there, and let's not even talk products.
0:22:32.4 Page Motes: God only knows how I have to cobble all that together. That kind of world becomes... It's complex just by itself, but when you're faced with continual evolution of regulatory bodies, or you're being pretty much told in order to get business or in order to have investors care, you've got to have your act together. Cobbling all of that together in a trustworthy way is incredibly difficult. So for us, we've done a ton of work to really ensure what are all the places where we have data, how do we build... We're starting to build a Pan-Dell data strategy around sustainability because so much of this data feeds off of each other, to model our targets, to know if we're making progress, but also some of our customers now want to know reporting that's unique to what they purchased.
0:23:27.1 Page Motes: They want the carbon footprint of that product, and they wanna know everything from the sourcing of the materials down to the end of life, and if you don't have good data, that's a really hard thing to give. So for us, it's not even just about putting those foundational places and making sure each of those groups have a solid basis of preparation document on how their data is gathered, and that's auditable by our internal and external audit firms, our teams, but also how is that information being combined properly to have an output both for internal needs and external needs. That is a real... That's a bear for people to tackle, but it's gotta be to me one of the first things you're thinking about, because it sets the rest of the strategy in motion.
0:24:15.0 Cindy Moehring: Well, it's gotta require a lot of collaboration because when you think about scope three emissions, you're talking about back in the supply chain, so you may be thinking about trying to collect data that you've never even had to collect before.
0:24:28.4 Page Motes: That's exactly right and that's where when people establish these goals, they need to really understand what data can we access today, and where can we go in the near future, and if we don't have that other kind of data, what are gonna be the processes we use to start gathering that. That is the biggest part is mapping all of that out and knowing where your gaps are and then filling them.
0:24:50.6 Cindy Moehring: Yeah. That's a huge, huge step and I think that a lot of people do not think about that when they're thinking about companies and achieving certain goals down the road, but you gotta really figure out how long is it gonna take you to collect the information to begin with.
0:25:04.7 Page Motes: I think so. How are you gonna collect it in the first place? How long is it gonna exactly take to collect it, and do you have to get that third party assured? I'll just give you an example. We spend weeks making sure that all of our data, we've got it. But then for emissions data, we often give it to a third party and say, "Go assure. Well, how long is it going to take for them to assure?" And how does that meet expectations on reporting deadlines, etcetera? It's a whole complex... The data concept is highly complex.
0:25:31.4 Cindy Moehring: Yeah, I would agree. Moving from one complex topic to another, there's so many different rating agencies out there, so when you are even trying to figure out how do I measure, what's the benchmark that I should use, how do you try to reconcile all the different rating agencies and decide which ones that you are gonna appease and which ones you're gonna just kinda let sit over here on the side?
0:25:58.9 Page Motes: Well, and couple that with... Because ESG is so hot, how many new groups are jumping in the fold? So what we thought was really intense a year ago is just becoming even more intense. I think that is another reason why I'm really happy that we have stood up this what we call the ESG Executive Steering Committee, this group, this body of key leaders that all touch either ESG because they run the programmes that feed in the ESG or they're responsible for important pieces that have to be disclosed externally.
0:26:35.0 Page Motes: We as a collective, really had to learn together, there were a few people that knew this call, but a lot of us needed to know what is that group and what do they do, and so we had to start first with an education, let's get all of us educated on who are the groups that tend to get the most traction, where have we been reporting for a long time, and how has that been going and really rationalise what was a large number. Okay, who are the groups that we need to actively voluntarily engage because we think there's many stakeholders that we have that really expect us to, so where are the got-to-haves and then on the nice-to-haves, how are we in a gap analysis set up to be able to deliver value to those nice-to-haves, and some of them might be, boy, we really wanna work with that and we really wanna engage with that group, but we've got a gap that we need to shore up, maybe there's some data we need to go grab, so maybe we need to put that as a phase two. So it's a lot of evaluation, a lot of gap analysis, and then of course, there are groups that don't really have a choice, they just scrape regardless...
0:27:45.8 Cindy Moehring: Right.
0:27:47.4 Page Motes: And with those what we try to do is say, let's talk to some of these groups to understand how difficult of it is it for you to get what you need from Dell, and how can we use that feedback for analysis of what we know they've scored us as, to help us shore up, maybe communicating more effectively, is it ... more easily making that access, if they're going to scrape and give us a score anyway, we might as well make the information easier to access... To help that process along. That's kind of been our strategy, is the got to have the nice-to-have readiness and then better communication externally, so that the scrapes are scraped as accurately as possible.
0:28:35.2 Cindy Moehring: Right, right. So do you think for multi-nationals at least, that the objective would be to hopefully get to some global standard goal, is that really achievable, or do you think that... Is regulatory action even needed here in terms of the SEC, Gary Gensler who I just talked to recently, the chairman of the SEC, about potentially requiring reporting at least for public companies, and then where does that leave private companies. So what... Do you think it's needed here, or do you think that corporations can, and the rating agencies can figure this out for themselves and whittle it down to a few?
0:29:12.2 Page Motes: I think our position is that we would like to see some more streamlined standards simply because you... Absolutely, I think any company, worth its salt, any company who understands this concept of purpose and profit have to be married together, understands that this is the world we are in, and we are wanting to play in that space, but you cannot do the work effectively if you are scatter-shot in how you get information out. And so we are definitely proponents of more standardisation because we think that will hold people accountable in a much more effective way, individuals leveraging that information will be able to compare apples to apples in a much more effective way, and we will then be able to put our effort to... Where as the most value for the most stakeholders, and then also really spend the rest of our time trying to go make sure that all the work we said we were gonna do through that all that OLP process is actually happening.
0:30:14.3 Cindy Moehring: Yeah.
0:30:15.1 Page Motes: Keeping those promises and really making a difference. So that's the perspective we have. How realistic that is? I don't know, I do know many of us working in that vein, and I feel cautiously optimistic that there is a pathway there, and there are some really great leadership groups that are helping pave the way, which we're really excited about, so we'll see. I'm not speaking for Dell, with this, I'm just... For myself, and maybe my past compliance background. I love it when there can be a lot of self organisational governance that can show best practice that...
0:30:51.4 Cindy Moehring: Right.
0:30:52.4 Page Motes: Required of regulation, but I understand sometimes when that has to happen, but I think what Dell wants to do is try to organise in the way that we can meet the expectations of regulations if that comes our way, but we still wanna be able to put forth our very best effort if that doesn't happen.
0:31:12.2 Cindy Moehring: Yeah, I would agree. That's gonna be something we're just gonna have to all watch unfold together because it's gonna take a little while I think.
0:31:21.2 Page Motes: Absolutely, right.
0:31:23.2 Cindy Moehring: Page this has been a wonderful conversation. I can talk with you all day about this, but I will ask you one last question that I always like to ask all of my guests for members of the audience who wanna go a little bit deeper on this topic or learn it, maybe at a little bit of a different way, are there any good books or podcasts or documentaries or shows or anything that you think would just be... Really useful for somebody?
0:31:49.7 Page Motes: In the ESG space...
0:31:53.1 Cindy Moehring: Yeah!
0:31:53.2 Page Motes: End with the hard one Cindy... No, I think there's a lot of... I don't have off the top of my head a person or a a guru necessarily, but there's a lot of really interesting work coming out of some academic groups. I know Fordham University has put some really interesting stuff out there, and I'm just calling out one, I think some of the academic groups are really interesting to take a look at, and then I think there's also... I think it's interesting to also see some of the big ticket corporate leaders, CEOs that are really trying to put some effort out there and really showing some leadership around what CEOs think in this space, but also... You've got people like Larry Fink and Black Rock that are really leading the charge in the investment community about what it means to really take ESG and make decisions from an investment standpoint, I think that's really interesting, and then also the business round table, I think the business round table has made some really interesting in roads in the ESG space and really starting to get comfortable with what they're thinking is there... I'd probably start there. Sorry, you caught me off guard.
0:33:10.3 Cindy Moehring: No, that's good. The Business Roundtable website is just a really a great resource, and I think everyone needs to be familiar with Black Rock and Larry Fink and what they're doing to really push this further into the investment community, both for public companies and for private companies. Both.
0:33:26.8 Page Motes: I agree. I think they both got... Those are, in some cases, progressive views, but I think you're finding that some of these progressive views are really starting to colour trajectories for the future, so they're not outliers, this is really where a lot of business heads and a lot of investment organisations are going, so things more about what those tenants are, I think is a really helpful place.
0:33:51.5 Cindy Moehring: I would agree. That's great. Well, we will leave it there Page, thank you so much for your time, it's been great to visit with you today, I appreciate it.
0:33:58.9 Page Motes: Thank you Cindy. Thanks again.
0:34:00.5 Cindy Moehring: Alright, bye.
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